1 00:00:10,310 --> 00:00:08,810 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:13,100 --> 00:00:10,320 with renowned philosopher and 3 00:00:15,770 --> 00:00:13,110 consciousness researcher dr. John Searle 4 00:00:17,990 --> 00:00:15,780 the real kicker that we run across and 5 00:00:20,779 --> 00:00:18,000 keep pounding on because it just won't 6 00:00:23,330 --> 00:00:20,789 go away is near death experience science 7 00:00:25,609 --> 00:00:23,340 I mean here are these doctors and in 8 00:00:28,550 --> 00:00:25,619 hospital carefully controlled 9 00:00:30,380 --> 00:00:28,560 experiments over and over again the 10 00:00:33,350 --> 00:00:30,390 brain but you're talking about dr. 11 00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:33,360 Searle is gone is non functioning isn't 12 00:00:38,540 --> 00:00:36,390 there and yet some kind of conscious 13 00:00:41,959 --> 00:00:38,550 experience that's able to be recalled 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:41,969 and see what's going on continues that 15 00:00:47,029 --> 00:00:44,850 evidence is pretty overwhelming at this 16 00:00:49,279 --> 00:00:47,039 point what do you do with that I don't 17 00:00:52,220 --> 00:00:49,289 know the stuff that I know about this 18 00:00:54,350 --> 00:00:52,230 tends to be rather anecdotal now maybe 19 00:00:56,150 --> 00:00:54,360 there is some really systematic 20 00:00:57,709 --> 00:00:56,160 large-scale study of near-death 21 00:00:59,660 --> 00:00:57,719 experience that shows you and have 22 00:01:01,520 --> 00:00:59,670 consciousness without a brain there's a 23 00:01:03,260 --> 00:01:01,530 lot of published work on this you know 24 00:01:05,719 --> 00:01:03,270 the best compilation is probably the 25 00:01:08,149 --> 00:01:05,729 handbook of near-death experiences 26 00:01:10,010 --> 00:01:08,159 edited by Jan Holden that university of 27 00:01:12,230 --> 00:01:10,020 north texas we've interviewed her and of 28 00:01:14,539 --> 00:01:12,240 course Bruce Grayson at University of 29 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:14,549 Virginia who is very well known in this 30 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:16,530 area I don't know enough about this 31 00:01:21,100 --> 00:01:18,330 stuff to have an intelligent opinion and 32 00:01:23,149 --> 00:01:21,110 of course it might turn out now that the 33 00:01:25,219 --> 00:01:23,159 hundred years from now we'll have this 34 00:01:28,130 --> 00:01:25,229 conversation and in heaven or in my case 35 00:01:30,289 --> 00:01:28,140 more likely the other place idea that 36 00:01:31,910 --> 00:01:30,299 you had to have a brain in order to be 37 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:31,920 conscious that was kind of silly idea 38 00:01:35,660 --> 00:01:33,570 that people had back in the 21st century 39 00:01:48,780 --> 00:01:35,670 AD might turn out that way I don't think 40 00:01:52,690 --> 00:01:51,010 welcome to skeptic oh where we explore 41 00:01:55,330 --> 00:01:52,700 controversial science with leading 42 00:01:57,969 --> 00:01:55,340 researchers thinkers and their critics 43 00:02:00,550 --> 00:01:57,979 i'm your host alex karras and on today's 44 00:02:03,609 --> 00:02:00,560 episode i have an interview with dr. 45 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:03,619 john searle now before i get to the 46 00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:05,570 interview with dr. Cyril I want to tee 47 00:02:09,969 --> 00:02:07,520 up a question for you as you know i 48 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:09,979 usually do this at the end of the show 49 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:12,650 but since the question relates to the 50 00:02:17,230 --> 00:02:15,110 quote that you just heard and since the 51 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:17,240 question relates to something else I 52 00:02:20,830 --> 00:02:19,370 want to talk about before I get into the 53 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:20,840 interview I'm going to throw it out 54 00:02:28,180 --> 00:02:24,170 there now here's the question how do you 55 00:02:32,290 --> 00:02:28,190 explain dr. Searles willful ignorance of 56 00:02:34,949 --> 00:02:32,300 near-death experience science or over 57 00:02:37,510 --> 00:02:34,959 why is he so clueless about 58 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:37,520 parapsychology hypnosis self-directed 59 00:02:40,509 --> 00:02:39,170 neural plasticity now I know I didn't 60 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:40,519 get into those last couple of them with 61 00:02:46,330 --> 00:02:42,650 him but you know where he would go with 62 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:46,340 those why does he think it's okay to 63 00:02:52,330 --> 00:02:49,730 summarily dismiss any evidence that 64 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:52,340 points to a model of consciousness other 65 00:02:58,180 --> 00:02:55,970 than the hopelessly obsolete mind equals 66 00:03:01,539 --> 00:02:58,190 brain clunker that we talked so much 67 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:01,549 about so in order to pull this apart let 68 00:03:06,789 --> 00:03:04,370 me return to the near-death experience 69 00:03:10,650 --> 00:03:06,799 science regret because that to me is 70 00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:10,660 always the most dramatic example of an 71 00:03:18,039 --> 00:03:13,910 evidence-based kill shot to the already 72 00:03:21,310 --> 00:03:18,049 dead mind equals brain carcass I mean 73 00:03:23,410 --> 00:03:21,320 think about this here's this guy highly 74 00:03:26,410 --> 00:03:23,420 acclaimed internationally renowned 75 00:03:28,870 --> 00:03:26,420 expert on consciousness he gives TED 76 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:28,880 talks and has invited the scholarly 77 00:03:35,229 --> 00:03:31,250 symposiums unconsciousness all over the 78 00:03:37,479 --> 00:03:35,239 world how can that guy be less informed 79 00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:37,489 about the published peer-reviewed 80 00:03:45,370 --> 00:03:41,440 literature a near-death experience than 81 00:03:47,289 --> 00:03:45,380 your average Oprah Winfrey fan I mean 82 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:47,299 it's not like he doesn't understand 83 00:03:53,140 --> 00:03:50,510 what's at stake as you'll hear he gets 84 00:03:56,830 --> 00:03:53,150 that this survival of consciousness 85 00:03:59,530 --> 00:03:56,840 question is absolutely central to all 86 00:04:00,580 --> 00:03:59,540 other scientific assumptions that we 87 00:04:05,309 --> 00:04:00,590 could make about 88 00:04:09,490 --> 00:04:05,319 sciousness so why is dr. Cyril so 89 00:04:13,570 --> 00:04:09,500 shamelessly unapologetically ignorant of 90 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:13,580 the science well that's the other thing 91 00:04:18,670 --> 00:04:16,370 I wanted to talk to you about before we 92 00:04:21,969 --> 00:04:18,680 get into this interview and that is 93 00:04:25,180 --> 00:04:21,979 science bullies you know back in March 94 00:04:27,879 --> 00:04:25,190 of this year 2013 Robert McLuhan 95 00:04:29,469 --> 00:04:27,889 published an article on his website and 96 00:04:32,830 --> 00:04:29,479 i'll link to it in the show notes about 97 00:04:36,730 --> 00:04:32,840 the organized effort of skeptics / 98 00:04:39,610 --> 00:04:36,740 atheists to rig wikipedia now these 99 00:04:41,980 --> 00:04:39,620 folks by organizing themselves into this 100 00:04:45,070 --> 00:04:41,990 tight-knit team and dedicating 101 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:45,080 themselves to making literally thousands 102 00:04:51,129 --> 00:04:48,050 of these little rule-bending Wikipedia 103 00:04:53,950 --> 00:04:51,139 changes and by targeting it to a small 104 00:04:56,860 --> 00:04:53,960 number of pages by doing all that these 105 00:05:00,550 --> 00:04:56,870 self-described gorilla skeptics have had 106 00:05:03,730 --> 00:05:00,560 remarkable success for example if you go 107 00:05:06,420 --> 00:05:03,740 to parapsychology on Wikipedia and 108 00:05:09,219 --> 00:05:06,430 you've bounced to any of the links that 109 00:05:12,430 --> 00:05:09,229 parapsychology would lead you to I mean 110 00:05:15,129 --> 00:05:12,440 it's a lost cause I mean it's absolutely 111 00:05:17,770 --> 00:05:15,139 impossible to get anything close to a 112 00:05:19,810 --> 00:05:17,780 neutral point of view from Wikipedia on 113 00:05:21,700 --> 00:05:19,820 any of those topics if you don't know 114 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:21,710 what I mean and you have a strong 115 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:24,289 stomach I'm pico de Wikipedia and find 116 00:05:27,969 --> 00:05:26,330 out for yourself if you listen to this 117 00:05:31,029 --> 00:05:27,979 show very much and you have a really 118 00:05:34,510 --> 00:05:31,039 strong stomach search for psychic 119 00:05:36,879 --> 00:05:34,520 detective and read that one and if after 120 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:36,889 doing that you're appropriately outraged 121 00:05:42,159 --> 00:05:39,889 and you have this serious masochistic 122 00:05:44,830 --> 00:05:42,169 streak in you will then open up the 123 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:44,840 wikipedia editor and try straightening 124 00:05:48,550 --> 00:05:47,090 out one of those pages I mean this is 125 00:05:50,969 --> 00:05:48,560 what you're supposed to be able to do 126 00:05:53,740 --> 00:05:50,979 right Wikipedia is an open source 127 00:05:55,450 --> 00:05:53,750 encyclopedia anyone with knowledge on 128 00:05:57,310 --> 00:05:55,460 the subject is supposed to be able to 129 00:06:00,040 --> 00:05:57,320 edit right well if that's what you think 130 00:06:02,589 --> 00:06:00,050 hold on I can save you a lot of time and 131 00:06:04,690 --> 00:06:02,599 a lot of frustration as a matter of fact 132 00:06:07,060 --> 00:06:04,700 as a primer before you go and do that 133 00:06:08,980 --> 00:06:07,070 let me point you to another blog post 134 00:06:11,770 --> 00:06:08,990 one that was just recently published on 135 00:06:14,260 --> 00:06:11,780 reality sandwich by Craig wheeler titled 136 00:06:17,890 --> 00:06:14,270 the Wikipedia battle 137 00:06:20,410 --> 00:06:17,900 Rupert sheldrick biography take a look 138 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:20,420 at that and then also take a look at 139 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:22,970 Rupert sheldrick article on the same 140 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:25,430 topic I have links to both of them in 141 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:27,650 the show notes but take a look at that 142 00:06:33,250 --> 00:06:30,710 and see what these guys have done to 143 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:33,260 shell drochs biography and to other 144 00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:36,050 pages and you really have a sense for 145 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:38,630 what I'm talking about but before you 146 00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:40,310 get too worked up about that and I don't 147 00:06:44,410 --> 00:06:41,870 think you will get too worked up about 148 00:06:46,810 --> 00:06:44,420 that because as a listener to this show 149 00:06:49,510 --> 00:06:46,820 you know that the fundamentalist 150 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:49,520 skeptics can rival any religious cult 151 00:06:53,590 --> 00:06:51,170 but what you may be surprised to 152 00:06:56,470 --> 00:06:53,600 discover from Craig's post and by going 153 00:07:00,070 --> 00:06:56,480 to Wikipedia is the zeal with which 154 00:07:02,890 --> 00:07:00,080 these groups are targeting science I 155 00:07:05,860 --> 00:07:02,900 mean take a step back Rupert sheldrick 156 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:05,870 after all isn't a bible thumper he's not 157 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:08,570 a creationist he hasn't taken a stance 158 00:07:12,490 --> 00:07:10,610 against a woman's right to choose or 159 00:07:14,590 --> 00:07:12,500 anything like that I mean he's a 160 00:07:16,870 --> 00:07:14,600 Cambridge biologist who wrote a book 161 00:07:19,420 --> 00:07:16,880 about dogs that know when their owners 162 00:07:22,030 --> 00:07:19,430 are coming home and he followed it up 163 00:07:23,710 --> 00:07:22,040 with his recent book about how science 164 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:23,720 might want to be a little bit less 165 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:25,850 dogmatic about defending the 166 00:07:31,330 --> 00:07:28,730 materialistic status quo of course that 167 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:31,340 book is science set free we dedicated a 168 00:07:36,340 --> 00:07:33,710 whole show to it a little bit back but 169 00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:36,350 at the end of the day the issue for me 170 00:07:42,130 --> 00:07:39,800 is not gorilla skeptics on wikipedia or 171 00:07:45,580 --> 00:07:42,140 itunes or reddit or any of the other 172 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:45,590 places these people go to try and heal 173 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:48,290 their meaningless by definition lives 174 00:07:52,510 --> 00:07:50,090 that is after all what these folks 175 00:07:53,890 --> 00:07:52,520 believe life is meaningless the universe 176 00:07:56,350 --> 00:07:53,900 is linked meaningless you are 177 00:08:00,790 --> 00:07:56,360 meaningless but the real problem I think 178 00:08:04,030 --> 00:08:00,800 is the impact they have on dr. John 179 00:08:07,420 --> 00:08:04,040 Searle because UC Berkeley philosophy 180 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:07,430 professor dr. John Searle is not a 181 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:09,770 professional skeptic he's not a 182 00:08:14,710 --> 00:08:12,170 fire-breathing you are a biological 183 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:14,720 robot atheist in fact within the 184 00:08:20,170 --> 00:08:17,510 mainstream science community he's seen 185 00:08:22,510 --> 00:08:20,180 as a progressive because he's willing to 186 00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:22,520 reject the silliness of this 187 00:08:27,470 --> 00:08:24,830 consciousness is an illusion you don't 188 00:08:29,990 --> 00:08:27,480 really have any experiences kind of non 189 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:30,000 sense that many still hold two but 190 00:08:34,550 --> 00:08:32,010 here's the thing when it comes to the 191 00:08:37,969 --> 00:08:34,560 really tough stuff the stuff that would 192 00:08:40,719 --> 00:08:37,979 truly set science free from the 193 00:08:44,210 --> 00:08:40,729 materialistic reductionistic atheistic 194 00:08:47,030 --> 00:08:44,220 dogma that cripples it Searle is 195 00:08:49,790 --> 00:08:47,040 willfully ignorant now is it an 196 00:08:51,710 --> 00:08:49,800 ignorance born out of a chummy academic 197 00:08:55,310 --> 00:08:51,720 life and a long list of accomplishments 198 00:08:59,210 --> 00:08:55,320 that he can rest on perhaps but i think 199 00:09:02,660 --> 00:08:59,220 this ignorance is also a byproduct of a 200 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:02,670 materialistic science culture that has 201 00:09:09,350 --> 00:09:06,570 been traumatized into a complacency by 202 00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:09,360 these skeptical bullies who push and 203 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:12,510 shove and spit insults at any free 204 00:09:18,710 --> 00:09:15,450 thinker in academia who dares to 205 00:09:22,190 --> 00:09:18,720 challenge their status quo it's not like 206 00:09:24,980 --> 00:09:22,200 Cyril is playing to the skeptics he's 207 00:09:28,250 --> 00:09:24,990 unwittingly absorbed their worldview 208 00:09:31,130 --> 00:09:28,260 into his own without forethought or 209 00:09:34,910 --> 00:09:31,140 deliberation and that's the greatest 210 00:09:37,220 --> 00:09:34,920 threat to science so let's hear from dr. 211 00:09:40,430 --> 00:09:37,230 John Searle it's a short interview I 212 00:09:43,820 --> 00:09:40,440 really just ran out of things to say to 213 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:43,830 a guy who thinks that parapsychology 214 00:09:49,910 --> 00:09:46,770 died with j-b Rhine back in nineteen 215 00:09:52,940 --> 00:09:49,920 eighty today we welcome esteemed 216 00:09:55,580 --> 00:09:52,950 Berkeley philosophy professor dr. John 217 00:09:57,920 --> 00:09:55,590 Searle to skeptic Oh dr. Searle has a 218 00:10:00,260 --> 00:09:57,930 worldwide reputation for his acclaimed 219 00:10:02,270 --> 00:10:00,270 work on the philosophy of mind and 220 00:10:04,430 --> 00:10:02,280 language he's the author of over a dozen 221 00:10:07,310 --> 00:10:04,440 books and hundreds of articles and 222 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:07,320 papers exploring issues of consciousness 223 00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:10,530 and mind-body mysteries dr. Searle 224 00:10:15,650 --> 00:10:12,510 welcome to skeptic oh thanks so much for 225 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:15,660 joining me well thanks for having me so 226 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:17,370 first off dr. Scholl I have to say when 227 00:10:23,210 --> 00:10:20,250 i was doing this preparation for this 228 00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:23,220 show i saw here you are in do you still 229 00:10:29,870 --> 00:10:26,640 teach philosophy 132 philosophy of mind 230 00:10:32,090 --> 00:10:29,880 at berkeley absolutely in fact i'm just 231 00:10:33,530 --> 00:10:32,100 starting a new semester i teach full 232 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:33,540 time and after i get through talking 233 00:10:36,950 --> 00:10:35,610 with you i'm going to meet my teaching 234 00:10:39,890 --> 00:10:36,960 assistants my graduate student 235 00:10:41,090 --> 00:10:39,900 instructors i got a class so it's gonna 236 00:10:41,330 --> 00:10:41,100 I'm gonna have at least three I might 237 00:10:44,210 --> 00:10:41,340 have 238 00:10:47,030 --> 00:10:44,220 at least 150 people in the class well I 239 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:47,040 think it's fantastic that a kid can 240 00:10:52,670 --> 00:10:49,550 still go to a public university in 241 00:10:57,070 --> 00:10:52,680 California and walk into a class and 242 00:10:59,690 --> 00:10:57,080 there's a Rhodes Scholar PhD from Oxford 243 00:11:02,030 --> 00:10:59,700 teaching the class i mean that's that's 244 00:11:05,210 --> 00:11:02,040 kind of rare these days so that's that's 245 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:05,220 really great terrific let's see on this 246 00:11:10,700 --> 00:11:07,770 show skeptic oh we've been banging away 247 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:10,710 at this issue of consciousness and the 248 00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:13,290 nature of consciousness for quite some 249 00:11:19,730 --> 00:11:17,160 time this is right up your alley let me 250 00:11:22,130 --> 00:11:19,740 start with a two-part question if I 251 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:22,140 could first off for those folks who 252 00:11:28,610 --> 00:11:25,290 don't know you were probably one of the 253 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:28,620 first prominent academics to publicly 254 00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:32,250 take a stand on this consciousness is an 255 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:35,310 illusion silliness if you will so the 256 00:11:42,140 --> 00:11:38,310 first question is are we past that are 257 00:11:44,540 --> 00:11:42,150 we past consciousness is an illusion and 258 00:11:47,750 --> 00:11:44,550 the second part that I want to throw in 259 00:11:50,210 --> 00:11:47,760 there before you respond is why the heck 260 00:11:52,460 --> 00:11:50,220 did it take so long I mean it seems 261 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:52,470 pretty obvious I think the most people 262 00:11:58,100 --> 00:11:54,810 that consciousness isn't an illusion 263 00:12:00,170 --> 00:11:58,110 what's the answer okay well I don't 264 00:12:03,650 --> 00:12:00,180 think we're past it on the reason is 265 00:12:07,790 --> 00:12:03,660 that there is this a tradition that says 266 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:07,800 I if consciousness exists well it 267 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:09,450 couldn't be part of the physical world 268 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:11,730 but the physical worlds the only world 269 00:12:15,950 --> 00:12:13,950 there is so consciousness doesn't exist 270 00:12:18,530 --> 00:12:15,960 it's an illusion now I think that's a 271 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:18,540 silly argument but that's another way 272 00:12:23,870 --> 00:12:20,970 that it goes now there's a history 273 00:12:25,340 --> 00:12:23,880 behind this and the history is that the 274 00:12:27,860 --> 00:12:25,350 people who talked about consciousness 275 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:27,870 often where people who did it for some 276 00:12:31,790 --> 00:12:29,850 religious reason that is they thought 277 00:12:35,090 --> 00:12:31,800 consciousness was part of God the soul 278 00:12:36,830 --> 00:12:35,100 and immortality and if if the only world 279 00:12:39,020 --> 00:12:36,840 that exists is the world described by 280 00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:39,030 physics and other natural sciences then 281 00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:40,200 it looks like it looks like 282 00:12:44,810 --> 00:12:42,990 consciousness cannot exist I think those 283 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:44,820 use our silly consciousness is a 284 00:12:49,730 --> 00:12:47,250 biological phenomenon it's as real as 285 00:12:53,090 --> 00:12:49,740 any other biological phenomena however 286 00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:53,100 it is distinctive in that the way that 287 00:12:57,050 --> 00:12:55,200 you show that something is in 288 00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:57,060 illusion will work for consciousness so 289 00:13:00,620 --> 00:12:58,530 you can show that rainbows and sunsets 290 00:13:02,780 --> 00:13:00,630 are illusion because that there's a 291 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:02,790 distinction between how things seem to 292 00:13:07,550 --> 00:13:06,090 you and how they really are it seems 293 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:07,560 like there's an arch in the sky the 294 00:13:11,930 --> 00:13:09,510 rainbow but it isn't really it's just an 295 00:13:14,060 --> 00:13:11,940 illusion but where consciousness is 296 00:13:15,860 --> 00:13:14,070 concerned where the very existence of 297 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:15,870 consciousness is concerned you can't 298 00:13:20,030 --> 00:13:17,910 make that distinction you can't make the 299 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:20,040 distinction between it consciously 300 00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:21,810 seeming to you that you are conscious 301 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:23,640 and whether or not you really are 302 00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:25,050 conscious because if it consciously 303 00:13:29,660 --> 00:13:27,390 seems to your conscious then you are 304 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:29,670 conscious so really there are two parts 305 00:13:34,490 --> 00:13:31,890 to the answer to this one is there's a 306 00:13:37,070 --> 00:13:34,500 traditional confusion that suggests that 307 00:13:39,170 --> 00:13:37,080 if consciousness really exists it can't 308 00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:39,180 be part of the real physical world and 309 00:13:42,740 --> 00:13:40,710 I'm saying of course it is it's a 310 00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:42,750 biological phenomena like digestion or 311 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:44,910 photosynthesis and then there's another 312 00:13:50,780 --> 00:13:48,090 confusion that fails whereby people fail 313 00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:50,790 to see that you can't make the illusion 314 00:13:54,650 --> 00:13:52,320 reality distinction for the very 315 00:13:57,140 --> 00:13:54,660 existence of consciousness now I thought 316 00:13:58,970 --> 00:13:57,150 that I wiped out these mistakes 20 or 30 317 00:14:00,800 --> 00:13:58,980 years ago but they keep coming up again 318 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:00,810 I don't I think it's going to keep out 319 00:14:06,740 --> 00:14:03,810 out for quite a while because we don't 320 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:06,750 yet have a thoroughgoing account of how 321 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:09,090 the brain causes consciousness and until 322 00:14:12,650 --> 00:14:10,890 we do that they're always going to be 323 00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:12,660 people to think well it's not part of 324 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:16,110 the physical world okay but don't you 325 00:14:22,370 --> 00:14:18,330 think that this is partially responsible 326 00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:22,380 for the public distrust of science to a 327 00:14:26,270 --> 00:14:24,360 certain extent and let me go with this 328 00:14:28,820 --> 00:14:26,280 for a minute you know when we hear 329 00:14:31,010 --> 00:14:28,830 prominent philosophers but more 330 00:14:33,830 --> 00:14:31,020 importantly prominent scientists neuro 331 00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:33,840 scientists brain scientists promoting 332 00:14:38,030 --> 00:14:36,240 this idea and then people look back and 333 00:14:40,060 --> 00:14:38,040 go when they really think about it they 334 00:14:43,370 --> 00:14:40,070 go wait a minute this not only defies 335 00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:43,380 common sense but it's completely at odds 336 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:46,110 with almost every aspect of our society 337 00:14:52,190 --> 00:14:49,050 our legal system our political system 338 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:52,200 not to mention science and medicine is 339 00:14:58,340 --> 00:14:55,170 built on the idea that you are a 340 00:15:00,830 --> 00:14:58,350 conscious being and that your decisions 341 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:00,840 make a difference you can decide you 342 00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:03,210 have free will it which is part I don't 343 00:15:07,130 --> 00:15:04,680 want to get too far into that whole 344 00:15:08,450 --> 00:15:07,140 thing but it's woven completely into our 345 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:08,460 society don't 346 00:15:13,250 --> 00:15:10,490 think that kind of contributes for this 347 00:15:16,070 --> 00:15:13,260 underlying sense of distrust that a lot 348 00:15:18,410 --> 00:15:16,080 of people have for science well I think 349 00:15:20,390 --> 00:15:18,420 it does contribute I think that the 350 00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:20,400 leading intellectual problem in 351 00:15:25,460 --> 00:15:22,080 philosophy at least and maybe the 352 00:15:28,220 --> 00:15:25,470 leading problem overall is how do we 353 00:15:30,910 --> 00:15:28,230 give an account of our human reality of 354 00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:30,920 consciousness we think we have free will 355 00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:34,470 mental life we have society and ethics 356 00:15:38,540 --> 00:15:36,510 and aesthetics how do we give an account 357 00:15:41,690 --> 00:15:38,550 of that that shows that it's a part of 358 00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:41,700 physical and chemical reality and now so 359 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:43,440 far we haven't succeeded in doing that 360 00:15:48,020 --> 00:15:45,570 and people aren't willing to give up on 361 00:15:50,030 --> 00:15:48,030 the common sense conception of life so 362 00:15:51,890 --> 00:15:50,040 sometimes this gives them an anti 363 00:15:54,740 --> 00:15:51,900 scientific attitude I don't think it 364 00:15:56,540 --> 00:15:54,750 happens some among professional 365 00:15:58,850 --> 00:15:56,550 intellectuals I don't doubt it as much 366 00:16:01,490 --> 00:15:58,860 of that in the better universities but 367 00:16:03,620 --> 00:16:01,500 certainly politically there's a mistrust 368 00:16:05,780 --> 00:16:03,630 of science and feeling a feeling some 369 00:16:07,790 --> 00:16:05,790 are other lived our human reality is 370 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:07,800 being denied by science now I think 371 00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:09,930 that's a terrible mistake I think what 372 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:11,910 we've got to do and this is one of the 373 00:16:15,530 --> 00:16:14,010 main task of philosophy is to give an 374 00:16:17,930 --> 00:16:15,540 account that shows that the human 375 00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:17,940 reality is not only consistent with 376 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:19,800 scientific reality it's a natural 377 00:16:26,180 --> 00:16:23,210 consequence of it once you've got 378 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:26,190 electrons and about protons and neutrons 379 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:29,250 and subatomic particles then it's just a 380 00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:31,530 matter of time and random recombination 381 00:16:36,170 --> 00:16:34,080 until evolution gives you life God 382 00:16:37,970 --> 00:16:36,180 consciousness Sh society and all the 383 00:16:40,370 --> 00:16:37,980 rest of it now that's something that 384 00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:40,380 you've put forward both here a couple 385 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:42,360 times about consciousness being 386 00:16:47,330 --> 00:16:45,290 biological consciousness being an 387 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:47,340 evolutionary phenomena in the physical 388 00:16:52,190 --> 00:16:49,530 world and all that I've also heard 389 00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:52,200 quotes from you and I want to clarify on 390 00:16:57,050 --> 00:16:54,270 this that you are open to the 391 00:16:59,810 --> 00:16:57,060 possibility that consciousness is 392 00:17:02,660 --> 00:16:59,820 somehow fundamental and that our 393 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:02,670 physical reality is somehow in some way 394 00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:05,930 we can't fully understand or explain a 395 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:09,270 phenomena of consciousness any thoughts 396 00:17:14,620 --> 00:17:11,970 on that well I think it's very unlikely 397 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:14,630 of course it might turn out that 398 00:17:19,579 --> 00:17:16,890 consciousness is one of the basic 399 00:17:21,020 --> 00:17:19,589 features of reality but as far as we 400 00:17:21,910 --> 00:17:21,030 know anything about how it actually 401 00:17:25,390 --> 00:17:21,920 works 402 00:17:27,820 --> 00:17:25,400 consciousness only exists in human and 403 00:17:30,970 --> 00:17:27,830 animal brains and not even all animals 404 00:17:32,860 --> 00:17:30,980 but in human and some animal brains but 405 00:17:34,750 --> 00:17:32,870 other than that there are no known cases 406 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:34,760 of consciousness a plants aren't 407 00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:36,770 conscious mountains and rivers and 408 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:39,110 waterfalls and planets are not conscious 409 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:42,170 now we have to assume that consciousness 410 00:17:46,660 --> 00:17:44,330 exists in the universe outside our 411 00:17:49,750 --> 00:17:46,670 little earth because you know we're only 412 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:49,760 one our little solar systems only one 413 00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:52,610 star of a hundred billion stars in our 414 00:17:58,510 --> 00:17:56,510 galaxy and our galaxy is only one of a 415 00:18:00,760 --> 00:17:58,520 hundred billion galaxies so we have to 416 00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:00,770 assume that we're not the only place the 417 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:03,110 universe has life and consciousness but 418 00:18:06,340 --> 00:18:04,610 we don't know about the other place and 419 00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:06,350 maybe they're totally unlike what we 420 00:18:11,230 --> 00:18:09,140 have well I think even that statement 421 00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:11,240 that you just made would draw a lot of 422 00:18:16,660 --> 00:18:13,280 controversy from some folks who say how 423 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:16,670 do we know plants aren't conscious how 424 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:19,250 do we know cells aren't conscious how do 425 00:18:25,990 --> 00:18:22,370 we know our DNA isn't conscious and it's 426 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:26,000 not a serious I balances um I mean I if 427 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:28,850 you take a let's say an amoeba why isn't 428 00:18:32,740 --> 00:18:30,110 it conscious well it hadn't got the 429 00:18:34,540 --> 00:18:32,750 right kind of machinery of course I 430 00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:34,550 don't know but that presupposes 431 00:18:39,370 --> 00:18:37,280 something we don't know that is you know 432 00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:39,380 what is the nature of consciousness how 433 00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:41,600 does consciousness arise when does 434 00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:43,190 consciousness begin when does it end 435 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:44,750 doesn't it I mean it's kind of a loop 436 00:18:50,590 --> 00:18:48,290 look I can't prove to you that my shoes 437 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:50,600 are not conscious okay maybe they're 438 00:18:55,420 --> 00:18:52,850 thinking I wish this bastard wouldn't 439 00:18:57,130 --> 00:18:55,430 walk on me all day long you know I can't 440 00:18:59,800 --> 00:18:57,140 prove that they're not conscious it's 441 00:19:02,260 --> 00:18:59,810 just not a serious hypothesis we know 442 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:02,270 that consciousness exists in certain 443 00:19:07,090 --> 00:19:04,330 rather specific parts of the world and 444 00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:07,100 shoes and ships and sealing wax and 445 00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:09,200 mountains and molecules and tectonic 446 00:19:12,670 --> 00:19:11,120 plates just don't have the right kind of 447 00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:12,680 machinery to be conscious now of course 448 00:19:17,170 --> 00:19:15,200 I can't prove to you that my shoes 449 00:19:19,150 --> 00:19:17,180 aren't conscious but it's not a serious 450 00:19:21,610 --> 00:19:19,160 hypothesis it's not something I think 451 00:19:23,650 --> 00:19:21,620 well boy we only get busy in make sure 452 00:19:27,370 --> 00:19:23,660 that we prove the shoes unconscious it's 453 00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:27,380 just not serious yeah I think the hard 454 00:19:32,590 --> 00:19:29,600 part there is where we draw the line in 455 00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:32,600 terms of seriousness plants there's been 456 00:19:37,750 --> 00:19:35,270 some interesting research for a long 457 00:19:40,270 --> 00:19:37,760 long time suggesting that plants react 458 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:40,280 to people in certain situations or there 459 00:19:44,650 --> 00:19:42,050 some kind of feel the fact that we don't 460 00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:44,660 understand but before we even ants have 461 00:19:49,660 --> 00:19:46,820 all kinds of sensitivities and reactions 462 00:19:53,140 --> 00:19:49,670 but I don't really think for a moment 463 00:19:55,570 --> 00:19:53,150 that the grass under my feet is thinking 464 00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:55,580 gosh it's terrible the way this guy 465 00:20:00,040 --> 00:19:57,470 keeps walking on us and that awful 466 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:00,050 lawnmower that he runs overseas of 467 00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:02,330 course I can't prove that the grass 468 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:04,190 isn't conscious but again it's not 469 00:20:09,550 --> 00:20:05,530 something that's worth worrying about 470 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:09,560 okay let's move on to maybe some topics 471 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:12,770 that are worth worrying about and would 472 00:20:19,450 --> 00:20:15,970 would violate this notion that 473 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:19,460 consciousness is purely biological and 474 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:20,930 maybe would push us in the other 475 00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:22,970 direction that consciousness is somehow 476 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:25,280 fundamental and let me go through a 477 00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:26,930 couple of these and tell me if you think 478 00:20:32,830 --> 00:20:30,860 they have any potential to violate or 479 00:20:36,370 --> 00:20:32,840 challenge that in any way so I just 480 00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:36,380 start with hypnosis does hypnosis in any 481 00:20:43,420 --> 00:20:39,950 way violate the idea that consciousness 482 00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:43,430 is purely biological and the mind is not 483 00:20:48,130 --> 00:20:45,830 an active agent that can do anything 484 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:48,140 well not as far as I know anything about 485 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:50,450 hypnosis that what you do is you get to 486 00:20:54,730 --> 00:20:52,370 people who are susceptible to certain 487 00:20:56,770 --> 00:20:54,740 kinds of suggestions and they're very 488 00:20:59,050 --> 00:20:56,780 they tend to be rather cooperative and 489 00:21:01,240 --> 00:20:59,060 they'll go along with the what they 490 00:21:03,460 --> 00:21:01,250 happen to suggest I'm not sure everybody 491 00:21:05,410 --> 00:21:03,470 can be hypnotized I'm not sure I could 492 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:05,420 be hypnotized I'm naturally very 493 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:07,490 realistic resistant anything like that 494 00:21:12,370 --> 00:21:10,490 but hypnosis definitely exists and it 495 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:12,380 exists like all forms of consciousness 496 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:16,010 in human brains and I think we ought to 497 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:18,290 study it more I think it's a phenomenon 498 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:20,570 that's worthy of more curiosity than I 499 00:21:25,690 --> 00:21:23,570 have given it so let me just be clear as 500 00:21:29,220 --> 00:21:25,700 I kind of go through this little laundry 501 00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:29,230 list here you're of the opinion that 502 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:33,710 consciousness is ontologically distinct 503 00:21:39,670 --> 00:21:37,370 from the brain yes or no I mean business 504 00:21:42,610 --> 00:21:39,680 a different is consciousness different 505 00:21:44,380 --> 00:21:42,620 and can act differently because then I 506 00:21:45,610 --> 00:21:44,390 think you could fit hypnosis into that 507 00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:45,620 category hey there's this thing called 508 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:47,600 consciousness we don't understand and it 509 00:21:50,620 --> 00:21:48,770 kind of works differently 510 00:21:53,170 --> 00:21:50,630 and then it can cause blisters on your 511 00:21:55,420 --> 00:21:53,180 hand and do all this stuff that you may 512 00:21:57,970 --> 00:21:55,430 not be consciously aware of but it's 513 00:22:00,790 --> 00:21:57,980 kind of doing it consciousness is a 514 00:22:02,980 --> 00:22:00,800 feature of the brain it is a feature of 515 00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:02,990 the brain that's caused by the behavior 516 00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:06,110 of lower level elements neurons as far 517 00:22:10,690 --> 00:22:08,480 as we know and it's realized in the 518 00:22:13,930 --> 00:22:10,700 brain as a higher level feature an 519 00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:13,940 analogy I like to use is water liquidity 520 00:22:19,630 --> 00:22:16,550 is not an extra juice squirted out by 521 00:22:21,790 --> 00:22:19,640 the water it's just a condition that the 522 00:22:23,890 --> 00:22:21,800 system is in when the molecules are 523 00:22:25,540 --> 00:22:23,900 behaving in a certain way get the 524 00:22:27,940 --> 00:22:25,550 molecules to slow down and it stops 525 00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:27,950 being liquid it becomes ice but the 526 00:22:33,610 --> 00:22:30,260 solidity and the liquidity are not 527 00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:33,620 separate things they're features of the 528 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:36,350 whole system in the same way my brain 529 00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:37,970 goes from consciousness to 530 00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:39,950 unconsciousness when I fall asleep and 531 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:42,110 then becomes conscious again but the 532 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:43,730 consciousness and the unconsciousness 533 00:22:48,250 --> 00:22:45,890 are not separate entities they are 534 00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:48,260 features of the brain their conditions 535 00:22:53,260 --> 00:22:50,960 or states that the brain is in so 536 00:22:56,260 --> 00:22:53,270 roughly speaking consciousness is to the 537 00:22:58,180 --> 00:22:56,270 brain as liquidity is to water and and 538 00:23:00,310 --> 00:22:58,190 the system can go from being liquid to 539 00:23:02,020 --> 00:23:00,320 being solid the same way that conscious 540 00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:02,030 brain can go from being conscious to 541 00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:05,750 being unconscious okay I get that I hear 542 00:23:10,870 --> 00:23:08,480 that what we've been exploring i think 543 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:10,880 is some of the evidence that suggests 544 00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:12,530 that maybe that's not true and we really 545 00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:15,110 started with parapsychology and folks 546 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:17,960 like Rupert Sheldrake from Cambridge or 547 00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:20,090 Dean Radin who used to be at Bell Labs 548 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:22,420 and as at ions and if not all these 549 00:23:27,250 --> 00:23:24,890 precognition experiments and telepathy 550 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:27,260 experiments highly suggestive that 551 00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:29,330 that's going on but put all that aside 552 00:23:34,090 --> 00:23:31,640 because the real kicker that we run 553 00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:34,100 across and keep pounding on because it 554 00:23:38,350 --> 00:23:36,110 just won't go away is near death 555 00:23:41,530 --> 00:23:38,360 experience science I mean here are these 556 00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:41,540 doctors and in the hospital carefully 557 00:23:46,510 --> 00:23:43,640 controlled experiments over and over 558 00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:46,520 again the brain but you're talking about 559 00:23:52,270 --> 00:23:49,340 dr. Searle is gone is non functioning 560 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:52,280 isn't there and yet some kind of 561 00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:54,530 conscious experience that's able to be 562 00:23:59,970 --> 00:23:56,710 recalled and see what's going on 563 00:24:01,960 --> 00:23:59,980 continues that evidence is pretty 564 00:24:02,570 --> 00:24:01,970 overwhelming at this point what do you 565 00:24:04,430 --> 00:24:02,580 do with 566 00:24:06,710 --> 00:24:04,440 how does that fit in a higher I don't 567 00:24:09,649 --> 00:24:06,720 know the stuff that I know about this 568 00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,659 tends to be rather anecdotal now maybe 569 00:24:13,580 --> 00:24:11,760 there is some really systematic 570 00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:13,590 large-scale study of near-death 571 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:15,120 experience that shows you and have 572 00:24:19,970 --> 00:24:17,370 consciousness without a brain but I 573 00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:19,980 don't know of any such study and what 574 00:24:24,769 --> 00:24:22,500 I've heard is largely anecdotal now the 575 00:24:26,419 --> 00:24:24,779 mistake that people made is now that 576 00:24:29,180 --> 00:24:26,429 they tend to make is they think well 577 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:29,190 look either these people are lying or 578 00:24:34,399 --> 00:24:31,860 there's a miracle and of course it 579 00:24:36,259 --> 00:24:34,409 bothers are probably wrong if people are 580 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:36,269 perfectly sincere who reported 581 00:24:41,389 --> 00:24:39,330 near-death experiences but is it I it 582 00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:41,399 doesn't follow that you can have a 583 00:24:44,930 --> 00:24:43,289 consciousness completely separated from 584 00:24:46,909 --> 00:24:44,940 the brain that they have that this 585 00:24:48,529 --> 00:24:46,919 miracle has actually taken place I'd 586 00:24:50,509 --> 00:24:48,539 have to know a whole lot more about it 587 00:24:52,159 --> 00:24:50,519 and see more systematic studies as I 588 00:24:54,409 --> 00:24:52,169 said that the counts that I've heard 589 00:24:56,509 --> 00:24:54,419 tend to be anecdotal they tell a story 590 00:24:59,180 --> 00:24:56,519 about a guy who has some unusual 591 00:25:01,129 --> 00:24:59,190 experiences well there's a lot of 592 00:25:03,620 --> 00:25:01,139 published work on this you know the best 593 00:25:06,129 --> 00:25:03,630 compilation is probably the handbook of 594 00:25:08,990 --> 00:25:06,139 near-death experiences published by 595 00:25:10,820 --> 00:25:09,000 edited by Jan Holden that university of 596 00:25:13,009 --> 00:25:10,830 north texas we've interviewed her and of 597 00:25:15,259 --> 00:25:13,019 course Bruce Grayson at the University 598 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:15,269 of Virginia who is very well known in 599 00:25:19,940 --> 00:25:17,250 this area but i'll just give you a taste 600 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:19,950 for what they've done I mean this is I 601 00:25:24,850 --> 00:25:22,049 think one of the simplest in those 602 00:25:28,370 --> 00:25:24,860 convincing experiments is in hospital in 603 00:25:30,980 --> 00:25:28,380 cardiac arrest ward they take people 604 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:30,990 they have a cardiac arrest they die 605 00:25:34,879 --> 00:25:33,570 they're resuscitated and then they go 606 00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:34,889 when they interview these people and 607 00:25:39,649 --> 00:25:37,289 they say okay tell us about your 608 00:25:42,379 --> 00:25:39,659 resuscitation and then of a control 609 00:25:44,810 --> 00:25:42,389 group that is people that didn't claim 610 00:25:47,090 --> 00:25:44,820 to have a near-death experience and then 611 00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:47,100 they have their study group people who 612 00:25:51,620 --> 00:25:48,990 did have a near-death experience and 613 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:51,630 then they compare it's pretty simple 614 00:25:56,930 --> 00:25:54,570 kind of protocol compare the amount of 615 00:25:58,730 --> 00:25:56,940 hits they get in recounting their 616 00:26:01,009 --> 00:25:58,740 resuscitation when they were dead they 617 00:26:02,899 --> 00:26:01,019 didn't have a brain compared the control 618 00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:02,909 group who didn't report an NDE with the 619 00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:04,740 group that did evan ND and there's a 620 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:07,200 significant difference that experiments 621 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:08,730 been repeated over and over again 622 00:26:13,250 --> 00:26:11,370 published in peer-reviewed journals and 623 00:26:15,139 --> 00:26:13,260 it should have a brain what does that 624 00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:15,149 mean I'm my impression as these people 625 00:26:18,769 --> 00:26:16,080 are in the hospital 626 00:26:21,169 --> 00:26:18,779 and they're lying there on the hospital 627 00:26:23,710 --> 00:26:21,179 bed but this is during resuscitation so 628 00:26:26,570 --> 00:26:23,720 we're asking them to recall their 629 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:26,580 experience during resuscitation as you 630 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:30,570 know within 10 to 15 seconds after you 631 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:33,450 have cardiac arrest you're EG is flat I 632 00:26:38,029 --> 00:26:35,250 mean that's just that's just the way 633 00:26:40,909 --> 00:26:38,039 that it is and people are and another 634 00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,919 guy a prominent cardiologist in the 635 00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:42,960 Netherlands dr. PIM van Lommel who's 636 00:26:48,980 --> 00:26:46,110 published in the lancet about this as he 637 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:48,990 tells you will tell anyone you know in 638 00:26:53,450 --> 00:26:51,090 the modern hospital resuscitation 639 00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:53,460 doesn't begin until at least a minute 640 00:26:59,600 --> 00:26:56,880 after that cardiac arrest has happened 641 00:27:02,090 --> 00:26:59,610 and and there's no there's no brain 642 00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:02,100 function during resuscitation that we 643 00:27:06,019 --> 00:27:04,260 know of I don't know enough about this 644 00:27:08,779 --> 00:27:06,029 stuff to have an intelligent opinion and 645 00:27:10,820 --> 00:27:08,789 of course it might turn out now that the 646 00:27:12,919 --> 00:27:10,830 hundred years from now we'll have this 647 00:27:15,649 --> 00:27:12,929 conversation and in heaven or in my case 648 00:27:18,110 --> 00:27:15,659 more likely the other place like the 649 00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:18,120 idea that you had to have a brain in 650 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:19,500 order to be conscious that was kind of 651 00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:21,210 silly idea that people had back in the 652 00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:23,220 21st century I'd might turn out that way 653 00:27:27,529 --> 00:27:25,710 I don't think it will I think it you got 654 00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:27,539 to have a brain or some equivalent 655 00:27:32,029 --> 00:27:29,760 mechanism now we we don't know how to 656 00:27:34,789 --> 00:27:32,039 create consciousness artificially but I 657 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:34,799 don't see any obstacle in theoretically 658 00:27:38,419 --> 00:27:37,049 to doing it if the brain can do it then 659 00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:38,429 you might be able to do it with some 660 00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:40,710 other kind of mechanism but the idea 661 00:27:44,810 --> 00:27:42,360 that it could just sort of speak float 662 00:27:46,610 --> 00:27:44,820 around freely without being realized in 663 00:27:49,310 --> 00:27:46,620 anything that does not seem to me a very 664 00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:49,320 serious possibility yeah I'm always 665 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:52,320 reluctant to go too far with what it 666 00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:54,450 might be or how it might work i just 667 00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:56,880 think to me I approach it from the 668 00:28:03,080 --> 00:27:59,360 standpoint of can we falsify the 669 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:03,090 existing hypothesis that it is 670 00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:05,610 biological I don't know I you know 671 00:28:09,049 --> 00:28:07,200 there's a lot of people on that site oh 672 00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:09,059 that's okay some of this stuff but I 673 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:10,740 said the stuff that I've seen press 674 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:12,090 accounts and so on tend to be rather 675 00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:14,250 anecdotal and not systematic science 676 00:28:18,889 --> 00:28:16,289 incidentally we keep going through this 677 00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:18,899 you're not old enough to remember and 678 00:28:25,170 --> 00:28:22,590 the parapsychology experiments of JB 679 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:25,180 Ryan and all those people at Duke and 680 00:28:28,260 --> 00:28:26,890 we heard all this over and over that 681 00:28:30,750 --> 00:28:28,270 while these experiments keep being 682 00:28:32,370 --> 00:28:30,760 repeated they go over and over and it 683 00:28:35,130 --> 00:28:32,380 turned out it that was really nothing 684 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:35,140 there under serious examination so they 685 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:36,970 and of course we knew I guess that they 686 00:28:40,650 --> 00:28:39,250 would that parapsychology would become 687 00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:40,660 resuscitated I don't hear much about 688 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:42,910 Ryan anymore in his group but there are 689 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:47,050 other groups yeah boy that's a long long 690 00:28:51,570 --> 00:28:49,210 tail to to kind of pull into this 691 00:28:53,730 --> 00:28:51,580 conversation why don't you tell us this 692 00:28:57,410 --> 00:28:53,740 to kind of wrap things up what do you 693 00:29:01,050 --> 00:28:57,420 see as the the most interesting future 694 00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:01,060 research areas that kind of piqued your 695 00:29:06,390 --> 00:29:03,910 interest in terms of wrestling some of 696 00:29:08,550 --> 00:29:06,400 this stuff to the ground okay to me the 697 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:08,560 most exciting question in the sciences 698 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:10,810 today and that's anywhere in the 699 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:13,690 sciences is how exactly do brain 700 00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:16,690 processes cause consciousness and how 701 00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:19,180 exactly is consciousness realized and 702 00:29:23,970 --> 00:29:21,430 how does it function in the brain I woke 703 00:29:26,130 --> 00:29:23,980 up this morning and I went from being in 704 00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:26,140 a state of unconsciousness to a state of 705 00:29:31,650 --> 00:29:29,200 consciousness what exactly happened in 706 00:29:34,890 --> 00:29:31,660 my brain that enabled that to take place 707 00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:34,900 and then how is it exactly that that 708 00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:37,270 consciousness with a specific location 709 00:29:42,810 --> 00:29:40,080 specific biochemical electrical chemical 710 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:42,820 processes in the brain can then a 711 00:29:47,730 --> 00:29:45,610 function in such a way as to cause me to 712 00:29:49,260 --> 00:29:47,740 get up have breakfast come to the campus 713 00:29:52,620 --> 00:29:49,270 and engage in this conversation with you 714 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:52,630 so what exactly is the role of a 715 00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:54,610 consciousness in our life and how does 716 00:30:01,530 --> 00:29:58,480 it lock into all of these lower level 717 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:01,540 neurobiological processes that enable it 718 00:30:05,820 --> 00:30:03,130 to function so for example if I now 719 00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:05,830 raise my arm I know it can only raise my 720 00:30:11,010 --> 00:30:08,080 arm because the brain is secreting 721 00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:11,020 acetylcholine at the end plates of the 722 00:30:16,290 --> 00:30:13,990 motor neurons and that means that the 723 00:30:18,570 --> 00:30:16,300 conscious decision to raise my arm has 724 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:18,580 also have to level of description where 725 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:21,130 it's got neurobiological properties now 726 00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:22,450 what I think is the most fascinating 727 00:30:25,980 --> 00:30:24,100 question in those science is how the 728 00:30:28,410 --> 00:30:25,990 hell does all of that work how does the 729 00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:28,420 brain create consciousness and then how 730 00:30:33,030 --> 00:30:31,120 does the complex system containing a 731 00:30:34,770 --> 00:30:33,040 level of description which is conscious 732 00:30:36,690 --> 00:30:34,780 and other levels of description which 733 00:30:38,909 --> 00:30:36,700 are straightforward biochemical and 734 00:30:41,849 --> 00:30:38,919 neural biological and physiological 735 00:30:43,769 --> 00:30:41,859 how does that operate in in the behavior 736 00:30:46,619 --> 00:30:43,779 of the whole system those to me are 737 00:30:49,379 --> 00:30:46,629 exciting questions dr. soul you have a 738 00:30:53,220 --> 00:30:49,389 number of interesting well done videos 739 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:53,230 out there that a TED talk you have a 740 00:30:56,849 --> 00:30:54,850 number of other videos people can find 741 00:30:58,229 --> 00:30:56,859 on youtube tell us a little bit about 742 00:30:59,639 --> 00:30:58,239 what's coming up for you you have any 743 00:31:01,529 --> 00:30:59,649 presentations I know you're in the 744 00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:01,539 school year so probably not what's 745 00:31:04,649 --> 00:31:03,039 coming up for you in terms of 746 00:31:06,599 --> 00:31:04,659 presentations or books or anything like 747 00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:06,609 that I'm writing a couple of books i'm 748 00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:08,799 finishing a book on perception and 749 00:31:13,139 --> 00:31:11,350 that's a tough one to do but i'm making 750 00:31:14,489 --> 00:31:13,149 progress without i think i've got some 751 00:31:17,249 --> 00:31:14,499 of that figured out and that i should 752 00:31:19,049 --> 00:31:17,259 have finished before Christmas and i'm 753 00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:19,059 going to be given various lectures at 754 00:31:22,529 --> 00:31:20,320 various place i'm giving a lecture in 755 00:31:23,729 --> 00:31:22,539 new york at the end of sep tember about 756 00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:23,739 speech act theory about the philosophy 757 00:31:28,019 --> 00:31:26,320 of language and of course i continue to 758 00:31:29,970 --> 00:31:28,029 give lectures on this other question 759 00:31:33,779 --> 00:31:29,980 that fascinating and that is how do we 760 00:31:36,090 --> 00:31:33,789 create a reality which is exists only 761 00:31:37,649 --> 00:31:36,100 because we think it exists and i'm 762 00:31:39,330 --> 00:31:37,659 thinking things like money and property 763 00:31:41,879 --> 00:31:39,340 and government and marriage and 764 00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:41,889 universities and cocktail parties and i 765 00:31:45,210 --> 00:31:43,809 have an account of how that works how is 766 00:31:47,549 --> 00:31:45,220 it that people get together and 767 00:31:51,769 --> 00:31:47,559 cooperate and create this very powerful 768 00:31:54,060 --> 00:31:51,779 social and institutional reality I'm and 769 00:31:56,340 --> 00:31:54,070 according to me according to my account 770 00:31:58,349 --> 00:31:56,350 of this language is crucial we use 771 00:32:01,139 --> 00:31:58,359 language not just to describe reality 772 00:32:03,989 --> 00:32:01,149 but language is used to create a a 773 00:32:05,489 --> 00:32:03,999 social and institutional reality show 774 00:32:07,470 --> 00:32:05,499 all those are questions I'm working on 775 00:32:09,419 --> 00:32:07,480 well it sounds like fascinating and 776 00:32:11,159 --> 00:32:09,429 important work we look forward to seeing 777 00:32:13,229 --> 00:32:11,169 it all it's been great having you on 778 00:32:14,789 --> 00:32:13,239 thanks for joining me okay well great 779 00:32:17,399 --> 00:32:14,799 talking to you and I really appreciate 780 00:32:19,889 --> 00:32:17,409 it thanks again to dr. Searle for 781 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:19,899 joining me today on skeptic oh I do 782 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:22,090 appreciate him coming on and I did have 783 00:32:26,399 --> 00:32:24,129 a little bit of a follow-on email with 784 00:32:27,629 --> 00:32:26,409 him along the lines that we've talked 785 00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:27,639 about here but it really didn't go 786 00:32:32,399 --> 00:32:29,470 anywhere so I don't need to share any of 787 00:32:34,830 --> 00:32:32,409 that with you I have as you know Twp a 788 00:32:36,539 --> 00:32:34,840 question or two from this interview at 789 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:36,549 the beginning of this so we'll just kind 790 00:32:42,419 --> 00:32:39,730 of believe that as it stands but I am 791 00:32:45,629 --> 00:32:42,429 looking forward to the dialogue that we 792 00:32:48,659 --> 00:32:45,639 might have about this interview and 793 00:32:49,590 --> 00:32:48,669 about the skeptical bullies and their 794 00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:49,600 attack 795 00:32:55,740 --> 00:32:52,679 Rupert sheldrick suika pedia page and on 796 00:32:58,740 --> 00:32:55,750 Wikipedia in general and on Reddit and 797 00:33:02,159 --> 00:32:58,750 on iTunes and everywhere else that these 798 00:33:04,529 --> 00:33:02,169 folks seem to congregate and focus their 799 00:33:06,990 --> 00:33:04,539 attention look forward to talking with 800 00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:07,000 you about that of course the place to 801 00:33:14,370 --> 00:33:09,160 connect with me on that is through the 802 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:14,380 skeptical website at ske pti KO kaam can 803 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:15,610 leave me a comment right there on the 804 00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:17,770 website bounce over to our forum and 805 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:19,809 join the discussion or drop me a note on 806 00:33:23,909 --> 00:33:22,090 facebook or through email well i have a 807 00:33:26,549 --> 00:33:23,919 number of interesting shows coming up 808 00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:26,559 i'm trying to get to this small 809 00:33:31,130 --> 00:33:28,750 collection of interviews that I've done 810 00:33:34,289 --> 00:33:31,140 on some of the outer limits of 811 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:34,299 consciousness but other stuff just seems 812 00:33:38,419 --> 00:33:36,250 to keep popping up and I never get to 813 00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:38,429 publish these other interviews but I 814 00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:40,750 promise I'll get around to them just as 815 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:43,120 soon as I can in the meantime I thank 816 00:33:47,220 --> 00:33:45,250 you again for listening please reach out 817 00:33:49,169 --> 00:33:47,230 to anyone else who you think would be 818 00:33:50,899 --> 00:33:49,179 interested in this show or who would 819 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:50,909 like to come along on this little 820 00:33:57,060 --> 00:33:54,730 skeptical journey we're all on so then